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Countess Richard
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1#
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(Date Posted:10/07/2003 4:59 PM)
It's been so long since anybody said anything on this board so I've decided to ask you all how you go about this crucial activity.
If no-one mentions a key, I don't trust my ears enough and have to watch their fingers. Intently. Then I can see the notes and thus can play. Sometimes.
All those musos who imagined otherwise about my rapt gaze, dream on).
What do you do?
Countess R
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Mrs Knitter
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2#
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(Date Posted:11/07/2003 8:57 PM)
I'm afraid I can only play by ear on my melodeon. I know what I want to hear - it's just a case of pressing the buttons until I find the right one! That's why I can never learn a tune with DTN, 'cos once he starts playing, I can't hear myself!! (probably why I don't play the box in sessions)
You must be very clever to learn by watching hands. What is it you play?
Cheers
Mrs K
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Countess Richard
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3#
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(Date Posted:12/07/2003 4:23 PM)
Thank god you're there, Mrs Knitter, I was beginning to think this board's membership was composed exclusively of Folkworks kids born with tune implants. I play fiddle and English concertina. Watching fingers only works with fiddlers 'cos you can't really see what free reeders are doing, as you must know. That for me comes from books. Laboriously. I hope you took phones with you to the babysitting. Could be a bit noisy and counter-productive, scaring the poor kids with Bellow.
Cheers, Countess R
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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Sideburn Bob
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4#
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Registered:30/01/2003
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(Date Posted:13/07/2003 12:23 AM)
Dear Countess Richardffice ffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
If it is any conciliation, I am supposed to be a qualified musician with a degree but find it extremely difficult to learning anything from music. I might be what you would call manuscript dyslexic. There seems to be something amiss between my eyes - brain - hands... however I am a lot better at ears - brain - hands... therefore I also watch intently but listen as well and pick bits up as I go along. Learning by ear seems to stick in my brain a lot longer that learning by rote i.e. show me how to do and I can do it pretty quickly. In the end every one has their own method of learning. My greatest problem is getting off my lazy arse and actually doing some decent practice.
Hope this helps
Sidey
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Countess Richard
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5#
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(Date Posted:13/07/2003 4:47 AM)
How didya do that?
I cut and pasted from Pagemaker but
all the formatting vanished.
Ah, co-ordinated ears, that? the way
to go.
Now, Sidey, careful where you mention
Your music qualifications, the folk
police are about!
Cheers, Countess
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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squeezy
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6#
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Rank:none
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Registered:23/12/2002
Time spent: 95 hours
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(Date Posted:14/07/2003 2:25 AM)
I can't read music - well I can in slow motion but not well enough to learn tunes properly. I need to hear it a few times and then I can play it if it follows the usual patterns. Some of the weirder stuff takes longer.
I reckon I have the same thing with musical dyslexia. I am dyslexic, but have learnt to cope with letters and words. I find it ridiculous that a language (written music) has the same symbols to mean all the different notes - just in a different place. To me it would make much more sense if the sign for a G crotchet was different to an A crotchet, like a letter of the alphabet, but the rhythm was marked out by more subtle diferences like position. I like ABC though!
Cheers
Squeezy
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Countess Richard
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7#
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(Date Posted:14/07/2003 11:57 AM)
Hmmm...when upper case is a crochet and lower case a quaver:
D f.5 a D.5 a | B A E A | B A F D | e.5 f g.5 a F A |
D f.5 a D.5 a | B A E A | B A E A | B A f.5 e d.5 f E x 2 D A |
when f in bar 1, f & a in Bar 4, a in bar 5. e & f in bar 7 = semiquavers
To me, notation works perfectly logically for strings as positions on the stave relate directly to finger positions. Not so much for rows.
Do you need notation to distinguish consonant and dissident intervals? I don't think so, If your ears can't tell you that much, maybe its
best to get out of music and take up fly fishing.
A musical mathematician could explain it better - I feel a Colin Cotter workshop coming on.
Aaargh, pass the gin!
Countess Richard
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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Mrs Knitter
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8#
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Rank:none
Score:397
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Registered:13/02/2003
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(Date Posted:14/07/2003 2:30 PM)
What an excellent idea John. Maybe you could patent it!
Using a load of lines seems such a daft idea anyway. And why 5? I could maybe understand 8 to make the octave. Does anyone out there know the history of the manuscript?!
Cheers
Mrs K
PS DTN can't read music either. (I can feel another poll coming on ...........)
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Countess Richard
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9#
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Rank:none
Score:226
Posts:226
Registered:06/04/2003
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(Date Posted:14/07/2003 6:17 PM)
After a random straw poll of two, neither of whom even recognised Frozen Gin, (you know who you are), it is proved conclusively that nu-tabs are rubbish - ears and notation win hands down. No contest.
But Mrs K, what about the SPACES?
Countess R
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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Countess Richard
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10#
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Rank:none
Score:226
Posts:226
Registered:06/04/2003
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(Date Posted:14/07/2003 6:44 PM)
Oh, and without a stave to hang the key signature on, you're gonna have to explain that all the Fs & Cs have to be sharpened, especially when using a computer that doesn't know how to do a hash.
God, I must be bored today.
Countess R
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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Rachel C
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11#
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Score:162
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Registered:01/01/2003
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(Date Posted:14/07/2003 11:48 PM)
I am Confused!!! 
Rachel
It doesnt take much to confuse me where music is concerned. From the person who has failed to learn both the Penny Whistle and Bodhran. I must try again when I have more time!!!!
Nice to be back, this messageboard has been quiet for a while!
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Countess Richard
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12#
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Rank:none
Score:226
Posts:226
Registered:06/04/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:15/07/2003 12:00 AM)
Just play it kids, that's all that matters.
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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Mrs Knitter
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13#
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Rank:none
Score:397
Posts:397
Registered:13/02/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:15/07/2003 7:59 PM)
Right. Finally managed to get said instrument and computer screen together in one room (and yes, I know who I am!).
I didn't recognise the tune, as the D in the first bar is the same for both upper and lower octave - doesn't sound quite the same with two low Ds! How about sub and super-scripts?!!
As for needing a stave for the key, just use a large G or D at the beginning! Everyone knows that G has one sharp in it. Don't they? Anyway, it's an interesting concept - well done for having the patience to work it out!!!
As for spaces, well, I'm always spaced out!!! 
Mrs K
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Countess Richard
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14#
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(Date Posted:15/07/2003 9:14 PM)
Oops, sorry Mrs K. I didn't mean to imply that YOU were rubbish for not recognising Frozen Gin but that my hastily invented 'nutab' was. Didn't think about differentiating the first two D notes because, with the tune in your head, it's obvious that it leaps the octave in 4 notes. Another shortcoming which wouldn't arise with a stave.
OK, Frozen Gin is a D tune which only requires modification of F and C. But what if the tune was in E or F minor? And what about timing? My 'system' is definitely in the bin.
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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Countess Richard
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15#
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Rank:none
Score:226
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Registered:06/04/2003
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(Date Posted:17/07/2003 11:55 AM)
Last night on R2 Jim Moray was talking about how he has deconstructed all his knowledge of music in order to operate in an aural rather than written mode. I think this means that by downloading free music-writing sotfware like Finale, there's now no point in using manuscript paper and quill pens.
So if you just rewrite bits of the program to produce notation in the format you want (maybe that's already been done?) you're in business.
Radio 2 Playback: Janice Long 24.00 - 03.00, about 20 minutes in)
Countess R
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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Countess Richard
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16#
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Rank:none
Score:226
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(Date Posted:17/07/2003 12:09 PM)
Sorry, my Mac just crashed and I had to reconfigure. Bloody computers, grrrrrr!
I didn't mean that frown, honest!
Anyone know how to turn off these silly icons?
Countess R
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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onestop
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17#
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Registered:14/05/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:17/07/2003 4:23 PM)
I thought Macs never crashed. Oh no, that's Quantas, sorry.
I can't see a frown from here Countess - maybe it only shows up on Macs?
Back on topic: I find it easier to pick up tunes by ear on the melodeon than I ever did when I played the piano or clarinet. Maybe cos I usually play without written music, maybe cos there are fewer notes to choose from, maybe cos the tunes I try to pick up are simpler.. I can only pick up left-hand or right-hand at one time though. Putting the hands together is beyond me without going through it very slowly on my own and with a lot of trial and error. I started off by writing out the tune and then adding chords and fingering to fit, but I don't bother any more. Memorising it all from the start is less work!
I can sight-read stave-music slowly. Usually i can recognise tunes i know without an instrument to hand. No way can I sight read ABC.
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Countess Richard
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18#
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Score:226
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Registered:06/04/2003
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(Date Posted:17/07/2003 5:41 PM)
Hi there onestop
You have almost persuaded me to go over to eBay and find a melodeon. But would it end up as yet another heap of junk I can't play properly? Probably.
Cheers
Countess R (retrieving fiddle from back of cupboard behind hoover where it's been since Nancy Kerr fiddled, sang AND clogdanced all together)
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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Countess Richard
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19#
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Rank:none
Score:226
Posts:226
Registered:06/04/2003
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(Date Posted:18/07/2003 12:45 PM)
In a bid to waste time, I've been taking a proper look at ABC which I had thought of previously just as a neat way to convert notes to midi.
One Stop, I can't sightread from it either, I really can't! Do people do that? If so, who? And why? It seems fraught with even more pitfalls than the 'top-of-the-head' system I invented above! But it prints out brilliantly to ordinary notation so why not just learn that? it's really not that hard.
ABC is just a code after all. We wouldn't look at digital images in binary, why do it with music? Is anyone going to convince me otherwise?
Countess R (sorry to be so grumpy)
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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lu x
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20#
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Rank:none
Score:36
Posts:36
Registered:23/04/2003
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(Date Posted:19/07/2003 6:46 PM)
i would also class myself as a manuscript dyslexic-i am dyslexic in the mathematical sense, and i have terrible trouble reading music, as i can get either the notes or th rhythm, but not both together.however, i have just passed my grade 7 flute without knowing any scales or being able to sight read. i find that i can play by ear a lot better than i can read music, so thats how my teacher teaches me-she plays it and i play it back to her. i also learn tunes off cds, and in sessions-like squeezy said, if you hear it a few times through then you can usually get it, but some of the really hard ones take longer.
my whistle teacher has a way of writing down music in which she uses the letter names of the notes, and puts little lines above them if they are a higher octave, and a dash underneath for when it is a long note, and what looks like a slur marking over the top of notes which are short. i cant really explain it, as i cant write it on the computer, but i find it easier to read than manuscript.
mrs K- i think a poll to see how many people play by other means than mnuscript would be very interesting-already a pattern is forming.
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Lu xXx
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Mrs Knitter
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21#
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Registered:13/02/2003
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(Date Posted:19/07/2003 11:41 PM)
Lucy - your wish is my command!! I'll get something sorted.
Mrs K
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lu x
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22#
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Score:36
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Registered:23/04/2003
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(Date Posted:21/07/2003 1:29 AM)
thank you very much mrs K-it is much appriciated!
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Lu xXx
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Countess Richard
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23#
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Rank:none
Score:226
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Registered:06/04/2003
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(Date Posted:21/07/2003 8:50 PM)
A similar thread on notation is now up and running (er...limping) on uk.music.folk where such tedious crap belongs. They're stuck on whether or not to let ABC fans have a voice. God, I wish I hadn't started this. Any chance of getting back to having some fun?
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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Anonymous
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24#
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Registered:06/04/2001
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:23/07/2003 12:38 PM)
Reply to : Countess Richard
I feel a Colin Cotter workshop coming on.
Text to be set font.Text to be set font_color
Hey - watch it! ;-)
-cjc
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Colin_the_Cott
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25#
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Rank:none
Score:11
Posts:11
Registered:23/07/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:23/07/2003 12:41 PM)
Reply to : Anonymous
Hey - watch it! ;-)-cjc
That's better, I have my own picture now...
-see ya, cjc
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Countess Richard
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26#
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Rank:none
Score:226
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(Date Posted:23/07/2003 1:08 PM)
Hi there Colin
That's more like it, very drole. Can't you make Sidmouth at all then? You're the one to make sense of all this.
Cheers, Countess R
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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Colin_the_Cott
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27#
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Score:11
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Registered:23/07/2003
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(Date Posted:24/07/2003 8:51 PM)
Reply to : Countess Richard
Hi there ColinThat's more like it, very drole. Can't you make Sidmouth at all then? You're the one to make sense of all this.Cheers, Countess R
Sidmouth is out I'm afraid. I am at an LMS conference in Durham so might catch some of the FolkWorks summer school events if I'm lucky.
I've never really had a problem with musical notation, but that's probably because I had it hammered into me at an early age. I hate abc though, it's so inelegant. For a good musical notation system you want to try lilypond, much easier and nicer.
As for the number of lines on a stave, I'm told that vocal music was notated by monks using 6 lines. Keyboard music was then 11 lines but it was too hard to read (especially if you are astigmatic) so they took out the middle line. I actually think that the stave system of notation is very good - its very visual as the distance between notes is greater if they are longer, and you can see if the notes are going higher or lower in pitch too.
-cjc
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Countess Richard
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28#
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Score:226
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Registered:06/04/2003
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(Date Posted:25/07/2003 3:42 AM)
In Squeezy's absence on neverending tour, I'd like to welcome Colin's contribution in getting this topic back on track! I've just got in and downloaded Lilypond. I think I'm going to be playing with it all night - it really is elegant and so superior to ABC. I've never had a problem with a stave system either but for those who do, this is really worth looking at. Thanks, Cott, for pointing the way,
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Colin_the_Cott
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29#
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Rank:none
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Registered:23/07/2003
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(Date Posted:29/07/2003 2:19 AM)
Reply to : Countess Richard
In Squeezy's absence on neverending tour, I'd like to welcome Colin's contribution in getting this topic back on track! I've just got in and downloaded Lilypond. I think I'm going to be playing with it all night - it really is elegant and so superior to ABC. I've never had a problem with a stave system either but for those who do, this is really worth looking at. Thanks, Cott, for pointing the way,
By the way, did I answer your question? I made about four attempts because, to be honest, I failed to establish what the fajitas you were on about...
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Countess Richard
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30#
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Score:226
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Registered:06/04/2003
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(Date Posted:29/07/2003 3:32 AM)
Well, I guess that's because you are one of those people who were born knowing how to play tunes. Or that you are better at playing your banjo than stoking the boiler. Your link is still down!
Cheers, Countess
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"the thing ya can"t remember tells the thing ya can"t forget"
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